[DinahC]

Ok. Just seen your answered a question about using lupins last month. But my overall question re developing a table of EAA content and % present still stands. Would this be something viable to develop if we all could contribute our research and you could review the values?

[DinahC]

Hi Doc T. Once again, can’t make the actual meeting owing to time zone differences.

My question…. So much to my disappointment, I have established that my horse is extremely allergic to soya. She is allergic and intolerant to many other “normal” foodstuffs commonly fed to horses. I am basically able to keep her free from discomfort on Coolstance, lucerne/alfalfa and grazing. I take her forage walking 3-4 times a week to help her find some other plants that she feels she needs in the hope that they will offer some proteins that i don’t know about.

So, as coolstance is not a high quality protein source, I’m looking at other options. I know, from you about hemp, but it is extremely expensive and the yard owner is reluctant to feed it.

I have researched pea flour and lupins. Both have been recommended as good sources of protein for horses. My research suggests pea flour likely a better option than lupin as 9 EAA’s present, while lupins have fewer.

Do you have access to the amino acids contents of these protein sources along with lucerne, soya bean meal and hemp so that we can develop a table that will make it easier to combine 2 or 3 lesser protein foodstuffs in order to achieve a high quality protein meal… I.e. complementation. Basically, my mares protein source is alfalfa. Knowing which EAA’s are present and the % thereof would really help with complementation. I can find the lists of EAA’s in the foodstuffs, but not always the % values. And I’m not always sure the values are accurate. Am I asking for the impossible?

I’m also interested to hear your thoughts on lupins as a protein source.

[DinahC]

@AngelaM… Great suggestion to gather the data on the spread of the word about the No Grain diet, and the increase in protein in general. I have more than 25 horses belonging to probably as many as 10 owners (one is a yard of 14 horses all on the no grain diet) already trying either the full no grain diet or at least adding the SBM (which i have called Golddust, as it really is in my opinion!) to their existing diet to raise the protein content. This scenario is happening in the situation where the horse is stabled under someone else’s care and that yard owner is not ready for such a dietary change as they aren’t seeing a problem with the horses in general. So these owners are adding to the existing feed…. I know isn’t ideal, but in my opinion, better than not increasing the protein at all. So whilst they are not seeing the full benefit, they are seeing a huge improvement in the topline build. One client recently rescued a severely malnourished OTTB. I didn’t want to get involved right away as she was addressing the recovery with her vet. But after 4 weeks of little improvement in the mare’s condition, i made a suggestion to just add some SBM. My client is now hooked and she’s keen to try the No Grain Diet as soon as she gets full control of her mare. It’s really exciting to see how quickly the change and improvement happens.

The only negative was when one client, who was initially thrilled with the progress in the improved condition just lost it when her saddles no longer fitted her horse anymore. So she reverted back to his old diet so he would not fill and build as much and her saddles will continue to fit. This has saddened me.

[DinahC]

An update on Praline…

Changes I’ve noted since starting on the Grain free diet.

Apart from the main changes already reported by many of the converts ;D, these are additional changes I’ve noted during the past 6 weeks.

~Praline is no longer suffering from anhydrosis. I see clear signs of sweating during lazy days at pasture on our hot summer days.

~ she is loving being hosed down. In the past, she absolutely hated even being sponged down let alone hosing, even on a hot hot day. Now she stands under the hose willingly and even has it sprinkling on her neck. Not sure about her face yet.

~ general willingness to run and even join in play in the field, something she never chose to do in the past.

~ she is more present in the moment, interested in what’s going on around her, generally walks carrying her head higher but relaxed. I feel proud is a nice way to describe it.

~She now rolls completely over, from L to R and back again. This is something she never did before. She used to go down and roll on the one side and get up and occasionally go down and roll on the other. Often she would only roll on the one side and not bother with the other!

~she just looks clean. She never used to look clean even after being groomed. That’s definitely not the case anymore. And she’s got a lovely shine as well.

~ she’s willingly walking in thicker, heavier going. In the past she would duck off to the side of the path and look for the firmest ground to walk on.

~ as an unfit horse, she managed an in-hand walk up the mountain better than her fitter 9 years younger friend. It was her companions owner who noted that her horse was more out of breath than Praline. Her horse is not on the Grain Free diet.

~ when bridling her, she is no longer nipping at my tummy. This was something that she’s done for years and years and years. I have tried to train it away, tried various techniques to bridle her but it never helped. But now that “bad habit” has gone.

~ when going through gates, on turning to close the gate behind us, her inside hind leg naturally steps under in the turn as against stepping back. So the flow of the turn is smoother and more graciousful. I feel that this indicates a more comfortable gut so that naturally suggests to me that she could do better movements in work, eg. Higher level Dr movements, or sharper turns in a jump off and likely the quick turns needed in many of the western sports (ha ha… She’s not a western horse! ) where horses are running against the clock.

I continue everyday to watch and observe for small improvements that are yielding big returns in my opinion.

As for her rubbing, I am more am more convinced that now that I have stripped her diet down to literally the SBM without any added herbs, the rubbing is directly anxiety related. I continue to monitor her response to different scenarios, but the rubbing and itching is definately reduced and even not at all some days. For the record, I have put her back on a homeopathic anxiety tablet again and I have noted a direct correlation between adding to diet and reduced rubbing.

[DinahC]

Thanks for replying here and nk stress that it didn’t make it into the AMA. Appreciate your explanation.

And yes… A 7h00 slot on your side definitely would suit me my side. Thank you. But hope there aren’t many other members who now can’t make the live chat.

[DinahC]

Hi Doc T. Question for your ask anything evening….. Can i ask you to please share your knowledge on windgalls or wind puffs, as some know them. They are clearly an indication that something is taking strain somewhere in the body. This is especially the case with horses who get them when they not even in hard work. Apart from what might be taking strain, what is your preferred method of treatment.

Thank You

Sadly I won’t be able to join you in person.

[DinahC]

@AngelaM Thank you….. I’ve some homework for the weekend now!…

[DinahC]

@AngelaM….I haven’t heard of the Polyvagal Theory as such. Have just done a quick read of it now and yes, I agree, a good working knowledge of this is essential for me to be able to help Praline through this next stage. I have some knowledge of SNS and PNS but clearly there’s much more to learn 😉 So thanks for the lead.

Just an update on the past 24hrs. Feeding 180g x47% am/pm, pasture in the day and alfalfa at night with free access to salt lick at night and fresh water but with anxiety meds added, she has not rubbed at all. She’s definitely a little flatter than I would like, but she has energy when asked to work so that’s perfect. I do believe the plain straight soya is working for her so now to gradually increase the quantity till I feel she’s getting adequate amount and hopefully won’t start rubbing! I took her for a hack this evening and she checked every fallen tree, (and there are lots as I’m in a forest environment), with extreme caution before proceeding!

If anyone else feels they know something I might benefit by knowing about, please feel free to share. I’m on a quest to help Praline be the horse she was always meant to be.

[DinahC]

Next 24hr update….

I made a blend of 120g x47% and 60g x35% for am/pm. This calcs to 43% protein and 13.8%fat. I feel the protein is still a good quantity but the fat is still much higher than I would like.

On checking her this morning, only 1 area rubbed just below the TMJ on the R. All other previously rubbed areas were not noticeably affected. She went out to pasture for the day and came in without appearing to have rubbed anywhere.

@KarenM…. Thanks for all the suggestions as to other things to consider. Regarding neck thread worm(NTW) – I do regard her as having NTW. Probably inflicted with it when she was 2-3 yrs old. When I realized what it most likely was, i started the course of extensive ivermectin treatments and have kept it up on a 3 monthly basis. I have read extensively about how others have treated a couple of times and it’s all been resolved. This just hasn’t been the case for me so i have continued to look for answers, all the while deworming just in case it really is NTW. Within the year of considering it as NTW, I called a vet for a biopsy establish if it truly is NTW. The vet’s diagnosis…. Allergy to fly bite saliva. This diagnosis did little to build my confidence in my vet as I was aware there will be fly saliva in the wounds as they suck the blood.

As for bedding… For years I stabled Praline. In Sept 2017, I moved her to a live out lifestyle. She briefly was stabled again from Sept 2020 to March 2021. It was during this time that I realized she is allergic/intolerant to pine wood shavings. Since then, i have ensured only sand be used for her bedding. That has certainly improved the sores on her legs.

Environmental issues re fly control…. I have used fly sheets, leggings, face masks and still she rubbed and itched. The use of flysprays deterred the flys setting on her but many have an adverse on her skin so i use very limited. I have recently stopped as trying to get her holobiome right.

Other environmental issues which have resulted in high anxiety was a chance up-rooting of a huge blue gum tree with a divided trunk. In Nov 2019, it up rooted and fell, crashing both shelters in their night camp at 1h00. This caused huge noise associated anxiety for ages and I learnt just last week that the sound of a tree falling is still extremely stressful for her. I say this as I tried to lead her in hand and she would have none or it. So I tacked up and walked her out and she was absolutely quacking under me. So at this point, I’m thinking the rubbing could be anxiety related. There has also been a change in the herd with a new horse arriving so that’s also raised her anxiety levels, so as of yesterday morning, I put her back on her anxiety tissue salts. Something I didn’t want to do as I am trying to “cleanse” her body so the right equibiome can re-establish itself.

@AngelaM ….thank you for the interesting suggestion from your farrier re being allergic to the SBM. I had a horse years ago that was allergic to soya. The response was completely opposite to Praline’s so not feeling completely convinced that she is allergic. Maybe she can’t handle the high percentage of protein in soya but definitely seen huge +ve changes will have to research where I can find hemp meal in my town.

So at this point, my gut feeling is anxiety and otherwise the higher protein levels. I can only play with the quantity of SBM I feed/day and keep her on the anxiety meds and hope all the stress factors subside fast!

[DinahC]

Hi Doc T. Thanks for making this webinar available for post attendence.

As you said, one of the ways to treat itchy skin is to keep flies at bay/away. Most commonly, we use fly sprays directly on the horse.

Since doing your nutrition course where you share the info about the microbiome of the horse and in particular, the holobiome, won’t the regular application of a fly spray destroy the holobiome severely, esp if used regularly? And then, won’t that have another huge impact on the overall health, and that includes the skin, of the horse?

[DinahC]

        24hr update.

Praline didn’t rub at all during the day yesterday. Came in from pasture to her night shelter /camp with no new rubs anywhere. I reduced the amount of SBM but wasn’t able to weigh it, but just tipped a bit out. She also had a reduced amount SBM this morning. Checked her about 9h30 and can see she’s rubbed her shoulder, poll and sides of her face again. Clearly done during the night.

I can only attribute this to the 47% sbm as she’s pretty used to the rest of the diet and the fasting routine through the night. My yard manager thinks I’m nuts feeding this diet and I’m concerned she’s going to ask me to move my horse…. Which I really don’t want to do as she has the pasture which i so dearly need. I’m needing guidance… Should i try a FFS and SBM blend. I do really want her on the SBM because she’s already regarded arthritic and I am not convinced that she truly is but rather the result of inflammatory ingredients that she’s consumed all these years.

I’m at my wits end. I really just want a simple horse now!

[DinahC]

@AngelaM…. Sounds like you have the ultimate agility track made for you ;). Look forward to hearing your progress and seeing some photos.

[DinahC]

Thanks for the welcome Eliza and AngelaM.

@ AngelaM, yes, I have picked up as I’ve been reading through other members intro’s that I might well have found a few people in the community with horses that are very similar to Praline. I’m so sorry there are others who are living with equally sensitive and reactive horses, but thrilled to know they have kind and caring owners who are desperate to help find the answers needed to make life better for them. So, in a nutshell, it’s great to have found other owners who can share my despair!

That being said, I can say that I think my despair maybe be coming to an end now that Praline’s on Doc T’s diet. I believe this has been her most comfortable week in 11+ years! I shall elaborate more in the No Grain Forum. I think it’ll also be best to respond to your question about exercises in the NGF as well.

[DinahC]

Would love to attend but the timing doesn’t work for me. Have sent in a question. Looking forward to catching the podcast.