Doc-t
Forum Replies Created
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Welcome Kerry. It is a learning experience for all including me. Glad to have you along for the journey. 🤠
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1) How to lift the upper lip in a horse that doesn’t want it lifted – Many horses don’t like their upper lip fiddled with. This could come from sensitivity, a past experience with a lip twitch or both. What I do is start with gently placing your thumb on the outside of the LOWER lip and pull that down to expose the lower incisors. If you are successful, reward the horse with abundant praise (Cheer leading v Coaching) or a peanut. If you must use a sugary treat do so ONLY if the horse has earned it. When the horse is allowing you access to the lower lip, KEEP IT PULLED DOWN with your thumb while you use the index finger of the same hand to fiddle with the upper lip.
Where most people go wrong is that they only have in their mind that they want to look at or photograph or clean (etc) something under the lip. Don’t use these as reasons to lift the lip. Focus, instead, on earning the trust of the horse. Reward when earned and NEVER REWARD BAD BEHAVIOR. An example of this would be, during your attempt of raising the upper lip, the horse rejects your request and you either say “Stand still! I’m not going to hurt you.” or you say nothing but double down on your energy and strength. The result of this is more rejection.
This is not a race. Baby steps. The goal is trust. The area you want to clean will never be cleaned if you can’t earn the trust of the horse.
2) The “bone structure” is probably the tip of the tooth root as the tooth is being ejected by the diseased underlying bone.This area is dead and has no pain from it. You can’t damage it more. If there is pain, it will come from inflamed gum tissue caused by a) fermenting debris and / or b) continued inflammation from feeding grain and grain byproducts. These can be reduced by daily gentle cleaning and removing all grain / byproducts and adding Equident.
3) The best way to clean this area is through a “touches” application of body temperature water under gentle pressure (lavage) directed by you with the use of a 60ml (2 oz) dose syringe. Once cleaned, the last lavage should be with Peroxyl (Colgate) found in any pharmacy, grocery or Amazon. This is flavored hydrogen peroxide used in human oral care that will add oxygen to kill the stink causing bacteria without stinging the gum tissue.
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Howdy @Caroline – Thanks for taking the nutrition course and then applying it to your crew. So after almost 50 years with horses I can whole heartedly agree with you – they teach you something every day. My job here is to pass this on to everyone. Thanks for joining us! Doc T
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Hi @Sandy_K – There IS a lot of information here and I have SO MUCH MORE to add. It is a life long adventure for sure where we ALL learn. Thanks for joining. Doc T
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You are a champion, @Kathy , for all the horses you have touched and will touch in the future! Thank you for trusting the process and being patient. Your words here will help many and we are all so grateful for the time you spent in doing, recording and reporting. 🤠
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Hey Jenny! I’m so humbled by the international presence here. Thank you for finding us!
I will be writing about aerobic v anaerobic training and the effects on metabolism – something a cross country runner probably knows a lot about! Personally, I’m a cross country driver (as in car)!
I’m glad you found the nutrition course interesting and eye opening. It is so sad to think that we ALL have been sold a bill of goods where the interest in the horses’ health is NOT of primary concern. Stay tuned as I have a bit more to say.
And yes I spell my name with a “G” because about 400 years ago we lived over there in the UK. And no, I don’t add a “u” in color. 🤠
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1) Adding the shredded mushrooms is excellent for EOTRH but only if you also remove the cause. In my opinion the cause is from the lectins of grains causing the autoimmune reaction of the underlying bone. If you haven’t done so, please read this blog: What Is The Cause Of EOTRH In Horses? And you also might be interested in this one: Speechless In A Case Of EOTRH In A Horse
2) Long term bute will work but also disrupts the microbiota of the gut. To test for pain just observe as you are doing. Grazing is a good measure. Although I am against carrots and apples, they can be used to determine if there is pain in the incisors. But really, is this important when he continues to eat pasture and hay?
3) I have floated teeth since 1983 without using a speculum. It is possible. Find a dentist willing to NOT use a speculum and you will be OK. See HorsemanshipDentistry.com
4) If you eliminate all grains and grain byproducts (including cookies and balancers) and add mushrooms you may see less inflammation and possibly some tightening of the teeth. However, if he loses a few incisors you may never know it unless you lift his lips. BUT, if you extract all of the incisors at one time you will always see his tongue as the teeth will no longer be there to keep his tongue inside the mouth. And even without incisors he will still be able to harvest pasture. Please see the videos here: https://sandbox.thehorsesadvocate.com/horse-dental-basic-care/ and here: https://sandbox.thehorsesadvocate.com/horse-oral-cavity-neoplasia/ and here: (you need to complete the previous units) https://sandbox.thehorsesadvocate.com/module-1/equine-dentistry-essentials-the-specialized-hypsodont-teeth/
5) Food gets “stuck” in the cheeks usually because the points on the teeth are so sharp he doesn’t want to move the tongue over them to clean out the areas. There are some horses who will pack the area to protect the cheeks from the sharp points. For both reasons, removing the sharp edges will help.
6) I also believe that Cushing’s disease is secondary to chronic protein loss from feeding excess sugar and underfeeding high quality protein. See this video: https://sandbox.thehorsesadvocate.com/horse-cushings-disease/ as well as read all the blogs on chronic protein deficiency.
I think that covers it. Doc T
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Girthiness is associated with colon pain which runs directly underneath the girth. There are a lot of “causes” but they boil down to a dysbiosis of the gut microflora caused by excessive glucose loads (grain, hay, pasture), gut inflammation from eating byproducts with lectins that affect the horse and all courses of stress such as shipping.
In horses that are refractory to the simple removal of all grain, grain byproducts, starch sources (apples, carrots, excessive hay), medications (non-steroidal antiinflammatories or NSAID’s like bute, Prevacox / Equiox, Banamine) and have been given at least 6 weeks to heal, sometimes they also need some medication. This includes a course of Gastroguard or Ulcerguard even though these are made for gastric ulcers. I also recommend Succeed for colonic ulcers. I am friends with the owner and he is passionate about gut health. They have a 60 day money back challenge but it is only available in the US.
We all want our horses to heal given the best environment. Sometimes it doesn’t happen. I am learning about the genetic differences in humans to glucose transport both in our cells and in our brains. It is fascinating and I will be podcasting and writing about it soon. Frankly, it is mind blowing but it helps me to explain why not all diets work the same in us or our horses.
One last thing – have either of you tried to eliminate all hay for 12 hours a day? The reasoning for this is for hormesis as well as reducing glucose intake. Limiting turnout is also an option as well as soaking the hay. The theory behind this is that even though the horse may not “look” metabolic (fat) they still may be insulin resistant. Be sure to feed them hay or pasture before you exercise as movement on an empty stomach may be a principle cause of gastric ulcers (splashing of acid within an empty stomach.
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Matt thought that too. We will work on that. Thanks. Anything else please add.
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I’ll be there later this month! Please keep it a little warm for me!
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Welcome Maria! Glad you’re here and grateful you took the no grain challenge. Thank you! Time to make a few podcasts and more blogs!
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SBM (soybean meal) is an ingredient with quality control low on the list versus a big name grain dealer with fancy bags and a large PR department. However most clients get good quality SBM. Ours comes from Sandusky Ohio and is purchased from our local feed dealer (all farm animals). We received some moldy bags from them and they admitted that there was a leak in their roof that had spoiled the bags we had bought. Full replacement given.
The bottom line is because it is an ingredient you need to be ever vigilant for mold, rat feces and unknowns. There are plenty of SBM makers out there and you need to insist on finding those farmers who take pride in their work and feed dealers who care about horses.
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The total protein in the wikipedia article is the TOTAL protein but not the absorbed protein by the horse. This is because not all protein is absorbed and this is called the bioavailability. Roughly 80% of soybean meal (SBM) protein is actually absorbed.
Egg whites, for example is 100% absorbed. Whey protein about 94% and all hay is about 50% absorbed. This is why you can’t just look at a label to determine how much protein your horse is getting. It is also the reason so many horse owners just avoid the protein topic altogether.
1 pound of SBM at 48% protein = 454g x 0.48 = 217g (a bit higher than the article above because most SBM you buy is 48%). Then 217g x 0.8 absorption = 174 grams.
The goal is 0.5 to 1.0 g protein per pound of body weight. )confusing to use metric AND imperial). A 1200 pound horse will need 600 to 1200 G protein per day.
Hay is about 10% protein on average. If you feed 20 pounds hay then 20 x 0.1 = 2 pounds protein but because it has a bioavailability of 50%, this then becomes 1 pound or 454g.
454g + 174g = 628g total available protein – within the minimal zone.
1200 pounds is used because from this it is easy to calculate for any horse with weights divisible into 1200: 100, 200, 300, 400, 600 pounds.
You can read about this more in the nutrition blogs or you can dig into the nutrition course here: https://sandbox.thehorsesadvocate.com/cdash/
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LOL – It’s hard for me to talk slow and say little – but I will keep you in mind as I do them. Thanks
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I ditto @Kathy – be patient. The muscle will take 6 to 12 months or more to return while the fat is quick to go. What is more important is the improved attitude soon followed by the improved overall health of the horse. Improved work ethic and improved resiliency and recovery after exercise are common observations along with improved hair coat and loss of the hay belly. Muscles and hooves take much longer. This is why step 3 in the blog “Feeding Horses As Simple As 1, 2, 3” is so important – write all your observations down in a journal. It is easy to have time quickly pass anticipations rather than having anticipations be revealed in time – like waiting for something expecting it to come sooner than reality can deliver.
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This looks like an immune reaction with serum. Causes could include bites from an insect or a contact dermatitis or from a puncture from thorns. There could be a lot of other reasons. However you said these were only on the hind limbs. I assume your horse isn’t in a standing stall (slip stall) or is restricted so the hind limbs are exposed to something the front limbs are not. Maybe this is only affecting a certain color of skin (white versus pigmented) which could be associated with a plant toxin.
Another consideration would be a very mild form of lymphangitis with serum weeping. I would expect there would be limb edema (swelling) but you did not indicate this.
Skin lesions require a methodical approach to collecting data and history. Be thorough and then report these findings to your vet where appropriate samples can be taken (impressions, cultures, biopsy). The image of the serum droplet does tend to lean towards an immune response.
As far as Cushing’s disease (CD) and this is related, I don’t see it. CD, in my opinion, is a neurodegenerative disease as stated at an AAEP conference. In addition, the treatment (Prascend or pergolide) is a dopamine agonist (a neurotransmitter replacement). My thoughts on CD are told in my video on CD in the associated topics section. In your question, I do not see CD being related to the lesion in your photo – but your vet can help you with this.
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I updated the activity feed to alert members when a new discussion is made or a reply to a discussion has been made. This way, if you check your activity feed you will see all new discussions and replies.
If you want to see anything added on the site from members you will need to connect with them first. The more connections then the more activity seen.
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Me too. I am working on a protocol or some widgets to alert us to new replies and discussions.
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@matt-tha-support good question