Doc-t
Forum Replies Created
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Thank you #Mustangirl I am grateful for your words.
Would you also make a detailed post about your experience and place that in the forum “No grain challenge?” Thanks in advance!
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PSSM is the acronym for PolySaccharide Storage Myopathy. EPSM and EPSSM are equivalents. The issue in this disease is the muscle cells are unable to utilize the glycogen well for energy production.
Glycogen is the way glucose (the basic sugar molecule of life) is stored in animals. Starch is how glucose is stored in plants. It is documented that some breeds of horses may develop an inability to convert glycogen into glucose for use in the mitochondria for fuel. A genetic change is given as the reason so that enzymes needed for this process to occur are altered or missing.
In my opinion, epigenetics (something that triggers a change in the genes) is at the root of many illnesses including cancer. It has been said that you and I have all the genes needed to develop any cancer out there, but it is the triggers that have not been pulled yet that prevents us from getting that cancer. Likewise, all epigenetic changes are brought on by triggers such as chronic stress, environmental chemicals, lack of sleep and poor nutrition. I’m sure there are more.
An example of this is celiac disease where a person becomes intolerant of wheat gluten. Until the trigger is activated, gluten is OK but once activated, the genetic change prevents the person from using gluten properly with adverse results occurring. I think this may be true with PSSM which means this can only be something that is managed and not cured.
But is this true? Or is there a better way to manage PSSM? Everyone agrees that glucose intake needs to be reduced and that a high fat diet needs to be fed. To understand this an understanding of glucose and fat metabolism is needed – so please listen to last month’s “Rounds” Aerobic exercise and the effects on insulin resistance.
Exercise will increase cell uptake of glucose for burning (assuming that glycogen is prevented from being converted into glucose). It will also cause increased production of triacylglycerides (TAG) for conversion into free fatty acids (FFA) for use as fuel. Adding fat to the diet will also increase production of TAG with more FFA’s entering the cell. Adding to this a severe decrease in glucose (starch) in the diet will actually start insulin resistance (IR) as the body preserves glucose for the brain. From this state, the horse will start gluconeogenesis (GNG) and convert other substrates including amino acids into glucose. Over time the horse will actually become less healthy even though the muscles have been trained to use more fat and less sugar.
Is your brain twisted yet?
I introduced the concept of mitochondrial flexibility which is now being looked at in humans as the most positive health change our cells can do. In humans, this flexibility occurs during periods of fasting where there is NO SUGAR or any other nutrient brought into the body thus eliminating most causes of inflammation. In less than 24 hours the cells are forced into using fat for fuel and the body fat is lost for conversion into this fuel. In addition, any glycogen is forced into being consumed. And there is more. “Bad” and broken proteins are consumed, unhealthy mitochondria and cells are replaced and free radicals that cause inflammation are removed. In fact ALL causes of inflammation expressed in the gut (colic), joints (stiff joints) lungs and brain are removed. Fasting not only makes you feel better, it IS better.
But this is in humans and not in continuously grazing horses. But what about winter? There was no hay so the horses actually fasted on cellulose with little starch. Then as spring came, the attitude improved and body fat increased. This is the essence of mitochondrial flexibility. Part of the year without glucose and part of the year with glucose.
I wonder what Rem would be like with some version of introducing flexibility? Restricting food intake frightens people but what if we soaked the hay to remove all glucose for a week along with no pasture and then reversed this with a sort period of pasture and hay? Could we force him to consume his glycogen and then replace it?
My problem with the protocol for PSSM (decreased starch, added dietary fat, added exercise) is it forces the horse to only use TAG / FFA’a for fuel which is not the flexibility he needs. This then becomes a trigger for increased IR due to the increase in TAG in the cell being converted into DAG (diacylglycerides). Yes, IR in a horse who is NOT fat. The increase in fat used for fuel also increases Acetyl CoA which triggers more conversion of body substrates (amino acids and others) into glucose through GNG. Now the horse is creating more glucose to feed the brain. But it is also available for muscle and liver glycogen without the need for insulin to enter the muscle cells. This does NOT force the use of glycogen which is the problem with PSSM horses.
Rotating through periods of lack and abundance may be what is needed for these cells to 1) repair or replace themselves and 2) activate the consumption of glycogen.
As most here know, I am confident that all horses are protein deficient. There is no way to measure this other than to see the loss of top line or see the poor hoof and hair quality. Remember that all enzymes and all cellular processes are driven by proteins. You say Rem has been off grain for 2 years, but what about the addition of high quality protein in SBM (soybean meal)? Have you been adding this too? If not, is it possible that he is also protein deficient? In the PSSM protocols there is no mention of replacing any lost amino acids. In may assessment, the high fat diet will lead to more protein loss and a further demise of the horse.
As you may already know, I think outside the box. My belief is that we need to get back to the basics and get things right first. That is, to remove all causes of inflammation and then replace the lost amino acids. Once this is achieved, the horse will have a chance to repair and have a health span we all want for our horses. However remember that when a horse is insulin resistant and with glucose intake low, protein can often be converted into glucose through GNG before they are used for repair. You need to be diligent in your observations. PSSM horses are usually not IR but restricting their glucose intake and increasing their fat intake may trigger conversion of SBM into sugar. If you add SBM with no other changes and he gains body fat then this is exactly what is happening. If so then decreases the added dietary fat and increase the work to force the cells to work as they should. Then give the cells some rest to repair using the SBM. Alternate this to create flexibility.
I have no exact plan for you other than to experiment. No one has looked at mitochondrial flexibility in horses. Use his moods as well as his lack of colic and stiffness to help you understanding his metabolic dynamics. Maintain accurate records so you can report back here with details. No vet or equine nutritionist is talking about mitochondria flexibility (going back and forth between fuels) but it is how all animals have lived before food was abundant 24/7/365. As I said, let’s get back to square one and build from there.
Anyone have other thoughts?
Also see the nutrition blogs on Hormesis and mitochondrial exhaustion – or complete the nutrition course included with your membership.
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Welcome Lancette! Thanks for coming on board. I am working on developing a safe place for ideas to come forward that might be controversial relative to what we all have been taught about caring for horses.This stems from asking “Why?” all the time. The fact you have learned more in the last 5 years is probably because you too have been asking “Why?” a lot and not really getting straight answers. fortunately human doctors and researchers are also asking more questions and digging deeper for better answers.
Over time we will get there. You joining and becoming part of this community inspires me to keep digging. My goal is to meet and exceed everyone’s expectations of learning more and finding better answers. Thanks! Doc T
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Hi Jenny – this is a common question or, I should say, mental block for horse owners looking at an all forage diet. Their response appears valid as fences do void any notion of “natural.” However they are overlooking two thoughts about horse nutrition.
The first is that the best source of minerals for horses is the ground water pumped from their wells and placed in their water buckets followed by a mined salt block hanging on the wall. Between these two sources plus any minerals found in the ground plants they eat, I don’t hear of horses having a mineral deficiency. Further, all mineral absorption is regulated by the horse chelating the minerals with a group of molecules called ligands. The most common ligand molecules are amino acids. With the theory that all horses being fed carbohydrates every day becoming deficient in amino acids, would a “mineral deficiency” really be created by a lack of supply or could it be from a lack of transport into the body? An interesting question.
Other than starvation, what horses held behind a fence and fed only forage and SBM have become mineral deficient? A great testimony comes from one of our members here who, after 2 years on the forage + SBM diet had blood work performed to verify any deficiencies – none found.
Vitamins in the horses are made by the bacteria in the gut. Other than starvation, have you found any vitamin deficient horses? In a meeting recently given by a veterinary researcher investigating Vitamin E, they have now determined that horses deficient in Vit E have a genetic defect that is consuming the Vit E faster than they can make it. This defect is rare yet if you follow the marketing, Vit E is a popular supplement in horses as it has also become popular in humans.
Many horse owners are applying what they know or have heard in human nutrition to horses, It is important to remember that horses are true vegetarians and humans are not (I am talking physiology here, not ethical or political motivation). Further, horses have a digestive tract similar to Tapirs and Rhinoceroses and no other common animal on Earth. The Rhinos I see on TV all seem perfectly fit though you could argue they have no fences. However in horses I still am not hearing about vitamin and mineral deficiencies. And did you notice the ingredients in all the vitamin and mineral supplements out there called “Balancers” and “Equalizers?”
The next time someone says to you that a horse being fed only ground growing plants confined to a fenced in pasture might be deficient in something, agree with them. Horses are a migratory animal with exposure to a variety of plants as they travel. But what they seek out are the variety of amino acids. This is a common problem in human vegetarians who need to eat a variety of plants in abundance far greater than carnivores to achieve their daily amino acid goals (the protein leverage hypothesis). But the vitamins are made by the gut microbes and the minerals are consumed in the water and fertilized plants and in the supplemented mined salt source.
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Welcome Chrissy! I love this part: ” I found looking for information on google/face book overwhelming/contradictory and confusing.” So true!
Sorry about the time difference but hope you can join us this Sunday at 8pm New York time to discuss “Aerobic exercise and its effect on insulin resistance.”
We are a small group today but we are a group who is very interested in peeling away all the misinformation – to “decomplexicate” feeding horses.
Great news about your success with the no-grain diet. You might want to expand on your story in the forum called “No Grain Challenge.” Thanks for joining.
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This article misses critical points that I will go over this Sunday in the Zoom meeting. In essence, there are 2 ways to get glucose into cells: insulin dependent and insulin independent. Exercise triggers the independent pathway. Further, increased body fat leads to the development of intracellular fat in the muscle cells. This is the first sign of IR (insulin resistance) seen decades before the blood values start to show in lab tests. In fact, muscle biopsies from healthy, lean, non-smoking, non-alcohol drinking 20 year olds showed that 50% of the sedentary subjects had started intracellular fat accumulation while 0% of the active subjects had.
Exercise leads to FLUX of fuels into the cells as well as FLEXIBILITY of the choice of fuels between fat and sugar. Calories of food intake are the same but with much different results.
Interesting find, Kathy, but behind the “Times” in research. Correct in that calories don’t count (the title of a book my parents bought when I was a child). Diet is very important as well as exercise – both will lead to the results we want. But in horses, a sedentary lifestyle for many with EMS (equine metabolic syndrome) is at the root cause even when muzzled and half starved. But how to exercise laminitic, retired, lame or unridable horses – that is the question.
See you on Sunday at 8pm eastern.
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Hi Zbear!
Personally I like the shotgun. I keep blasting away. Even though it isn’t very effective, I just feel better afterwards!
This is my way of saying how difficult it is to get flies under control on a horse farm. Let’s start by dividing the farm into 2 areas: inside the barn and outside the barn.
Inside the barn – The most effective measure that works every time are high velocity fans. The horses stand with their eyes closed appreciating the no fly zone they create. You also mentioned another effective measure and this is to clean away all “organic material.” Unfortunately there is usually more of this left in the barn after cleaning out the fresh manure.
Fly bait seems to help a lot. I keep it in a container within the stall so the horse can’t get to it. I sprinkle it on the barn floor after sweeping up. However this may not be what you want to do if you have cats and dogs. Read the label for warnings.
Outside the barn is more difficult. If you can install a fan in a run-in shed then this will work. If you are in a warm climate you can add water mist to the fan though this makes a mud hole under the fan.
Everyone who uses fly predators likes their effectiveness. They certainly reduce the load especially around the outside of the barn or near the manure pile (which should be far from the barn).
I’ve never been a big fan of feed through fly control since I saw 1 horse have an adverse effect from the ingredients (liver inflammation reversed when it was not fed anymore). The manufacturer denied it was their product but I believe there are some horses sensitive to it. In addition, read the ingredients as some have corn as a base and I don’t feed any grain to my horses.
Of course fly masks are a given here in south FL along with copious spraying with pyrethrin fly control products before turn out. Turn out after dusk and bringing them in at dawn works well along with the fans.
And when you really get frustrated, be sure your horses are not in your line of sight when you start shooting your shotgun.
Looking forward to other people’s responses especially from outside the USA.
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I’ll have an article on this by this Sunday evening. In essence, it is an immune suppression issue. For me, this is why only 1 or 2 horses get scratches in a herd turned out in the same environment. Topical remedies are abundant but until the underlying cause is improved, scratches (and rain rot) will continue. It is NOT the environment as the primary cause but it is the inciting cause. The bad guys came into town and took over because the Sheriff and the deputies were absent.
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February 22, 2021
Hello everyone from Nashville, Tennessee! I’m on my final leg of my monthly excursion to some part of the US to work on the teeth of horses. This trip has been a bit of a mess due to winter storms with 3 days spent in a hotel room in states where they own no snow plows or salt.
Thankfully I’ll be heading south later today and back in FL soon and home a bit later. Stops in Tallahassee and Ocala.
Rescheduling and driving tossed my brain and I forgot to add a Thursday Thoughts here – my weekly update on this site and what I have added or updated. My mission is to always add a weekly update on Thursday. Please forgive me as this is not a habit yet.
Here is a reminder though which Matt will be posting soon – and you all have received an email about. I’ll be having a Zoom meeting this Sunday at 8pm New York time. The topic is Aerobic exercise and its effect on insulin resistance. This will be a review on insulin resistance and the work around we all can benefit from.
Also, if you know of someone interested in becoming a member, I will have another Zoom on Monday March 1st which is a repeat of the introduction to this site. Feel free to pass along that link to them or to post it in your social media.
Gotta go float some teeth. I’ll be back in a few days. Doc T
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I heard from a client yesterday as I worked on her 26 year old horse just how well this horse was doing on SBM. She reminded me of one more point to add to the SBM story – how much SBM should a horse be ingesting per day?
The human range is 0.5 to 1.0 g per pound of ideal body weight. Body builders know this and use the 1g/lb as their target. Above this and the usefulness of added protein diminishes (I assume the same for horses). In addition, it is hard to eat 1g/lb in a day though this is my personal goal. Knowing this, the client increased the SBM to 4 pounds per day for this 1300 pound, 26 year old active horse. She was having trouble building the top line as well as other poor “work ethic” issues. 4 pounds of SBM yields about 700g (174 x 4).
She was also feeding about 20 pounds of forage which included 4 pounds of alfalfa, grass hay and pasture giving roughly 450g. 700 + 450 = 1150g total daily high quality protein. The results in about 2 months was an improving top line and a work ethic and the willingness of a much younger horse. She has not noticed any ill effects including any abnormal odor from the urine. However she has not monitored the blood or urine using chemistry tests with her veterinarian.
What is the take away here? Is aiming for the 1g/lb target good for horses? So far, several older horses have seen similar results with this much SBM added per day (4 or even 5 pounds SBM per day). Other horses, especially ones with EPSM (tying up due to genetic code differences) have seen adverse reactions to any SBM including aggressive behavior and becoming fatter. It seems that the first step is to start with 1 pound SBM per day and look for adverse reactions. Remember that soybeans are a legume just like alfalfa so if your horse is intolerant of alfalfa hay then SBM may not be tolerated. After a month or two there is no adverse reactions you can increase the amount of SBM fed. Yes it can be divided into several feedings.
What is needed here are more stories to help us all with how much SBM to feed.
One more thing – what is high quality? This means the protein includes all the 10 EAA (essential amino acids) which means the ones the horse cannot make and therefore need to consume.
And one more thing – Adding muscle is the BEST health move you and your horse can make. Why? Because insulin resistance (IR) only occurs in the MUSCLE cells for 2 reasons: 1) excess glucose (starch) intake and 2) decreased muscle mass to handle this excess intake. The more muscle, the less likely to have IR and ALL the subsequent illnesses in humans (metabolic syndrome, dementia, diabetes). IR also occurs in the liver causing in about 40% of the human population Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease (NAFLA) which is soon to be the leading cause for liver transplants in America (Surpassing Hepatitis C).
Do you and your horse need more protein?
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In the near future I’ll be writing and podcasting on the effects of excess sugar in horses extrapolated from human research. It is critical to understand. I think the title will be, “How can my healthy looking horse be so unhealthy?”
Knowing what I know now – and that is changing even as early as this morning – excess sugar, especially in sedentary people and mice, causes the beginning evidence of insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome. In addition to excess glucose intake, fructose (the sugar of fruit) accelerates these conditions.
Reading the descriptions you linked to, they describe coconut flakes as “fruit” and “sweet” with only 1 saying it has 1g sugar per serving. Searching found that coconut flakes have 7g per serving.
I recommend Coolstance only for older horses needing a noninflammatory source of fat for energy and increased body fat. These are 25 + year olds. It is not for younger horses or for athletic horses.
I’ll work on describing the use of glucose and fat within the muscle cell soon. Being on the road and dodging winter snow storms is diverting my attention. In the meantime stick with the hay cubes, peanuts or just a pat on the neck.
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Hey there Rosie! Congratulations on achieving Level 1 Certification. And welcome to the community barn!
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You can be grateful for no flies! 🤠
Cold acclimation is standard but when it is unusual and sudden it can be a risk to many without preparation. But you seem to have the bases covered with rugs, blocked wind and heated water.
In my experience living in the northern climates, heated water is an amazing impaction colic prevention. We used liquid propane to run a gas element submerged in the outdoor water tank (I found it in the NASCO catalog back in the 1990’s). Never froze and the amount of water consumed was startling.
Blocking the drafts is so important due to the wind chill factor and the targeting of high velocity wind through a small hole.
The rugs can be tricky. They need constant attention to position / slipping, attack by the friendly play of neighbors, leaving them on too long when the temperature rises later in the day and soaking of rain or mud. But having them on is essential especially if the hair coat is short or clipped.
Two other things to think about are ice and frozen hoof prints in yesterday’s mud. Both can break legs. Keeping horses inside is difficult when the weather has returned to no wind and sunshine but caution is needed if ice and frozen mud holes remain.
That’s all I can think of. Anyone else have ideas?
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I personally don’t like the feed through fly control though many find success with it. I tried it with my horses and one became very ill (jaundice and fever) so I never used it again. I have also had a few horses get the same illness with Strongid-C feed through dewormer. I warn everyone to look for this reaction within the 1st day or 2 but if there is no reaction after 2 days, they never become ill.
Diatomaceous earth (DE) are the microscopic shells of diatoms – snails from the ocean depths. The theory is that they scrape away the parasites physically with the sharp corners. There are a lot of horse owners believing in DE for parasite control but I’m not one of them. I don’t believe I have heard DE being used as fly control. I also have not heard of DE causing any harm to horses.
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Please make a detailed post of your experience with this diet in the forum called no grain challenge. It will help others. Thanks!
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“For me a white board and your putting some of the information up there would be helpful. I liked the original Horse’s Advocate presentation where you used one then. I will have to listen again to fully comprehend your points.”
I had put together some notes that I was going to add for everyone to follow, but as I did, it became more confusing. This week I am planning to write a blog for the free side and from that I can make some more detailed notes for members. It is a very complex subject that took many reviews for me before I began to understand it. To think that it isn’t IR but GNG that is the problem is huge – but I’ve really been saying this for years. The exact mechanism has eluded me until now.
Hang on, it’s coming. Please remember I still work full time (more now since my associate has gone part time) and my days are filled with working and driving. I’m aiming for this by Sunday. Thanks for taking the time to watch.
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You said “regularly dewormed.” Everyone has a different description of what “regular” is and for many horses, it may not be enough. I often ask this question. How often did your parents deworm you? Ivermectin and Strongid are approved for use in humans so did your parents use them on you?
The answer lies in the infection rate. How dd you control parasites in your family? Many techniques were used including: septic system away from the dining room, washing hands, using knives and forks, toilet paper – all kept our dirty fingers away from our mouths. This is true parasite control.
Is the environment where your horse eats free of all manure? Are you picking up manure from the paddock? If you are then deworming using a fecal report may work well. If you are not then deworming once a week for 3 weeks may get parasites under control followed by more frequent deworming. With increased deworming comes an increased chance of resistance.
For scratches, once a week for 3 weeks with ivermectin usually eliminates the root cause. I’ll write this up this week. My prep for yesterday’s meeting took up all of my time. The recording of that is now up in the events forum in the February Rounds discussion. Thanks for your patience and sorry you missed the meeting. Hang in there as we ALL learn how to get around this site. After a bit of time it will become easier – I promise. Doc T
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Thanks Sandy_K for taking the “leap of faith.” Now we need more details.
1) What is the form and amount of exercise (riding, lounging, treadmill, ponying, etc)? Please include amount of time (45 min, etc) and the frequency (3x per week etc). Do you monitor the heart rate of the horse and if so, how? Do you work him into a sweat / hard breathing? Any details will help here.
2) What is the amount of food restriction? How many pounds / kg of hay per day and what is the difference before the restriction? What is the amount of pasture time and difference in restriction (ex, I reduced the pasture time by 50% and hay by 50%). What is the pasture condition (lush, space, dormant, growing, etc). Type of hay (80% grass, 20% legume, etc).
My zoom meeting this Sunday will go into the details of glucose metabolism and the effect of exercise on it and insulin resistance. This will tie in well with your experiment over the last 30 or so days. Your quick results are quite remarkable but explainable. Diet AND exercise! Just like Mom had said….
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Hi Lei – thanks for joining this movement to help horse owners find the missing horse owner’s manual. You might not realize this but this membership site is only 2 weeks old! We did a soft launch to work out the kinks (and there were many) and a major launch is coming the end of this month. Think of it this way – you are one of the first to come to the party and the band is only warming up and the beer isn’t cold yet. It is where the people wonder if this is really going to be a good investment of their time. Looking for fancy hors d’oeuvres you find only potato chips. I get it.
However, as the host I know where this party (the horse’s advocate movement) is going to be soon. I have outlined almost 700 topics of which many, including scratches, need additional material. I have asked for, and you have responded to, requests for topics to be worked on. My goal is adding material to 2 topics per week. By Sunday I will add to scratches and narcolepsy and how to fix a leaking hydrant.
I also have an interesting webcast on Zoom this Sunday discussing insulin resistance and aerobic exercise. The link will be here shortly and it is for members only.
For me, this isn’t a race to become the biggest site for information about horses without an agenda. I rather want to build a safe and effective site to help as many horses as possible in my lifetime even if it takes years to do it. Having members like you to encourage me is an essential part and I am grateful.
With a small amount of time spent here each day checking your activity feed (just as you would on Facebook), this site will soon become easy to get around. I might update the tour videos to reflect this.
In the meantime, have you ever wondered why only 1 or 2 horses in a herd get scratches while the others in the same environment don’t? That’s because scratches is a sign of an immune suppression. The topical treatments won’t work until the underlying immune system is improved. A parasite load is the most common issue (see the “related materials” tab on this page: https://sandbox.thehorsesadvocate.com/horse-internal-parasites/). Another contributing factor is gut inflammation from feeding grain plus protein deficiency (the immune system is almost all proteins).
Thanks again for your thoughts. Stick around as this site will only improve with time. Doc T
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You are the 2nd person to ask about this. A specific would be the effect of medications on the microbiome. Thanks